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Future of Forms

19 September 2005 at 21:39 CEST | In Forms, OpenWorld 2007, Oracle, Patches and upgrades |

I just attended a session by Robin Zimmermann on the future of Forms and the move to SOA. He did his best to get the message across that FORMS IS NOT DEAD! Oracle has been saying this for a while but it just seems hard to accept for a lot of people. It looks like Forms is still an important and interesting product since the room was almost full.

He then went on to explain some of the new features in the latest Forms releases and what’s coming next. The main focus is on integrating with the J2EE/SOA world. He also gave a short introduction to JDeveloper and ADF for the ones that do want to make the switch from Forms to Java or (more likely) want to do both and integrate.

The two major new features of 10.1.2 he showed where JVM Pooling and End User Monitoring. JVM Pooling is what was really necessary to make the Java Importer useful. With the Java Importer you can “import” a Java class into your Form application. It will basically create a PL/SQL wrapper for the class so you can call it from any program unit or trigger. In the pre-10.1.2 releases this would mean that each Forms server process would have its own JVM. A JVM can be an expensive thing and can consume a considerable amount of memory. This is not something you want spawned for each individual user. Even more so, since you cannot set the parameters used for this JVM meaning it will use the defaults for your platform. With JVM pooling the JVM can be shared across multiple Forms sessions.

The other thing is the End User Monitoring. This uses Javascript to measure the time it takes to startup a form, open a form using open_form/call_form/new_form, execute a query and perform a commit. All this data is stored and you can analyze and graph it. The important thing is that it measures the time it takes on the client side, so it is really representative of the end user experience. You’ll have to use Enterprise Manager Grid Control to take advantage of this feature. It is not included in the normal server control of EM.

The things that really caught my attention were the JavaScript API and Java Callback planned for future releases. Forms has been able to call Java in a number of ways on both the client and the server for a while. But is has been very hard to do it the other way around; have some Java code control the Forms application. This is what the JavaScript API and Java Callback have to offer. The JavaScript API will make it possible to control the Forms application on the client by controlling it from JavaScript. The Java Callback is at the server end and allows a Java class to control the running Forms process. This sounds like music in my ears and is exactly what we need to slowly migrate from Forms to J2EE/web applications. I want to switch the control of our applications away from the menu in Forms and to the web application by using links and buttons on a webpage. However, I don’t want to navigate away from a running Forms applet without doing normal post-form processing warning a user about outstanding changes and perhaps committing these.

After the session I went up to Robin to ask about an expected timeframe for the JavaScript API and/or Java Callback. Unfortunately he couldn’t give any, but he did suggest another solution to my problem. It will require some work but it is doable. I should be able to create my own small Java applet running on the same page as the Forms applet. My own applet would be invisible to the user but can receive events from other applications (perhaps JavaScript on the client or some sort of communication from the server). My own applet can then make a call to Forms activating a WHEN-CUSTOM-EVENT trigger. That trigger could then do whatever processing is necessary. This is definitely something I will investigate further when I’m back at the office. Wouldn’t it be great if Oracle would publish some sort of whitepaper on this (if it isn’t there yet)? I will ask around at the Customer Advisory Board tomorrow.

I must say this session was a great way to start my official part of OpenWorld. Now off to lunch and hurry to the next session at 13:30.

17 Comments

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“He did his best to get the message across that FORMS IS NOT DEAD!”
“He also gave a short introduction to JDeveloper and ADF for the ones that do want to make the switch from Forms to Java or (more likely) want to do both and integrate.”

Sounds a lot like saying “This cow is not dead…but this is how you turn him into steaks and hamburgers.”
My last project was using Forms 10g, which still uses PL/SQL 9.0 and the SQL engine from 8.0 (ie before 8i). If they want to convince us that Forms isn’t dead, then they should at least TRY to make it look like they are keeping it up to date with the server. Frankly, it looks like the only updates they do to it are to the name.

Comment by Gary — 20 September 2005 #
I would have to agree that it looks like Oracle is not spending the amount of resources on Forms that they did in the past. It’s their statement that this is because the product is mature. I partly agree with them. There is no need to suddenly drop Forms if you’re a happy user. However, I wouldn’t start a new greenfield project using Forms. Not alone because of the limited development effort spent by Oracle, but more because the architecture just doesn’t fit most modern requirements.

Users tend to demand more intuitive self-serice like applications. You will have to consider things like user training required to work with Oracle Forms. Most web applications tend to be a lot more intuitive. There are so many other things to consider when making the choice between Forms and other technologies (e.g. J2EE).

The message Oracle is just sending out is that they will continue to support Forms for years to come. The main target is at integration with other (J2EE) technologies. If you look at the sessions at Oracle OpenWorld there is still quite some interest from users and Oracle still has quite a number of sessions planned on Oracle. Not as much as they had a couple of years ago, but that’s because marketing has moved on to Fusion Middleware, Project Fusion (merging the apps) and J2EE. I guess Forms is that mature that it doesn’t need all the marketing that Oracle put into it a couple of years ago. Besides that, I guess Oracle is no longer targeting Forms at new customers but does want to keep it’s steady userbase happy.

Comment by Wilfred — 20 September 2005 #
As Frank Zappa could say in the past, “Forms is not dead, it just smells funny !”

Comment by Francois Degrelle — 20 September 2005 #
gary - the 10.1.2.0.2 involved the upgrade to the 10g RSF - so my your own admission, you are convinced now?

there are many new features going into the product - (as included above) I can only announce so many times about the new features - if there are not enough or they are not the features you want then thats another issues but the product IS evolving with new features - That is a fact.
Thanks
Grant Ronald

Comment by Grant Ronald — 20 September 2005 #
See comments from Robin and Regis here:

http://forums.oracle.com/forums/message.jspa?messageID=1058187#1058187

If you have not read these posts, they state that the focus is integrating Forms with Java. That whilst Forms will continue to be supported, the addition of new features above and beyond this is not the priority.

Comment by Simon — 20 September 2005 #
From the stats I see that this page gets a huge number of hits during OpenWorld. Looks like the future of Forms is a hot topic to a lot of you. I would really suggest to have a look at the OTN discusion mentioned in the comment by Simon. It gives a good idea on the status of Forms.

And as Robin said during the session; he’s still amazed when he sais 20 times during a presentation that Forms is not dead and people still step up to him afterwards and ask “so Forms is going away, huh”. Some people just won’t believe the message Oracle is sending out. If you’re that stubborn, there isn’t much I can do for you.

Robin also indicated that looking at the number of TARs on MetaLink, Forms is still their number one product. There TARs are not about logging new bugs, but just asking support questions. If you’re one of those negative thinking people, you could see an explanation in this that Forms is just a too complex product. To me (and Robin) it proves that Forms still has a very large and active user group and I don’t think Oracle can and will ignore this.

Comment by Wilfred — 20 September 2005 #
With regards to the concept of controlling a Form from outside the form I Googled for the when-custom-event trigger and found a past blog entry from Frank Nimphius at http://www.orablogs.com/fnimphius/archives/000419.html

Het describes something simular where he wants communication between two Forms that share a JVM but do not share a database session. I’ll have a look at his code when I’m back in the Netherlands.

I just have to figure out how to alert a Form that it needs to close. I could either do it with a Javascript to Java call on the client or do it on the server. That would just mean that the server decides a Form on the client needs gracefull closing. Now comes the challenge how to communicate that back to the client. Enough to think about.

I’ll also drop the question in the Customer Advisory Board for Development Tools. Maybe Oracle is willing to investigate it further and publish some sort of whitepaper on OTN. Other users must be facing the same problems.

Comment by Wilfred — 20 September 2005 #
“gary - the 10.1.2.0.2 involved the upgrade to the 10g RSF - so my your own admission, you are convinced now?”

Well I had to look up what an RSF was (Required Support File) and I’m still not clear what that actually means in terms of what you can do. If it means I can use, for example, PL/SQL associative arrays and SQL statements with scalar subqueries/analytics/case statements…. then yes.

Comment by Gary — 21 September 2005 #
I think that customers do not want to hear that Forms is going away. They just do not want to be caught off guard. They are just being realistic that Oracle Form’s time is limited. Oracle appears to be doing more integrating with J2EE than enhancing the product. Developers are just trying to hedge their bets, so they are ready for when Oracle says, “Oracle Forms will be not be enhanced as of …” This means it is time to go back to management and say, “It is now time to start migrating off of Oracle Forms to …”. Management then hears, “It is now time to spend money on lots of training (for J2EE) along with loss of productivity during the migrations.” If management is smart they would freeze new project development of Oracle Forms and start looking into alternatives like J2EE or HTML DB or Portal.

Signed a person who has worked with Forms since V2.0 in 1987.

Comment by Mike — 21 September 2005 #
Mike - come and check out my blog - you don’t even have to spend money training your Forms developers - we are provide free hands on days - and JDeveloper is free as well - come on, does it get any better ;o)) - we tell you your investment in Forms is safe, we give you an IDE and framwork that makes J2EE development more “Forms like”, we give you free training and the IDE is free as well; and the platform gives you all the integration points between Forms and J2EE so you don’t have to code them yourselves…even if I wasn’t wearing my Oracle hat I’d still think thats not a bad deal ;o)
Grant

Comment by Grant Ronald — 23 September 2005 #
Oh, and in response to Simons comment “That whilst Forms will continue to be supported, the addition of new features above and beyond this is not the priority.” - this is 100% correct and there is a good reason for this. Forms has been around for a long long time and as such there are thousands of business running and depending on Forms - in the past, when we have come up with “innovative” ideas customers have said - “don’t break my existing application!” - Forms does pretty much all it needs to do - sure, there are nice “to- haves” - like the UI data split - but this would have fundamentally changed the way Forms works and would have meant changing existing apps - customers are telling us they don’t want this…
I meet hundreds of Forms customers every year and they tell us the same things.
Tell me my investment with forms is safe
Tell me you’ll still be bug fixing
Don’t break my existing applications
I still want new features (and the key is that the areas customers are using more and more are the integration points of the App server - things like SSO and Java Integration) and Wilfred’s company is a perfect example - he is looking for SSO solutions, interation with Java technologies and support of emerging standards like 1.5 JVMs…
Regards
Grant

Comment by Grant Ronald — 23 September 2005 #
Check out for neosllc.com for oracle forms to j2ee convertion.

vgo.neosllc.com

The gateway to Oracle forms convertion path.

Comment by Kuttin — 23 September 2005 #
I gone through the interface of the form, there are only few changes made,as per if u see the user interface there is no such dufference the form appearence is same as it was in 6i.
They should have atleast change the UI ,so the end user gets good look and feel.

[ edit by admin to use lowercase and not all uppercase ]

Comment by PRASHANT — 27 December 2005 #
I guess (and hope) it is Oracle’s intention to not change the user interface and experience on upgrading the Forms versions. Existing Oracle Forms client want to make sure there investments in this technology are save. They do not want any radical changes in new versions.

I’m also not sure what change in UI you were thinking of. Forms has two different look-and-feels: generic (which is Windows 9x like) and oracle which is more webby/modern. When using the Oracle look-and-feel you can even choose from a number of color schemes. See http://www.oratransplant.nl/?p=18 for more info.

Comment by Wilfred — 28 December 2005 #
How many Trigger Will not support to On wab Form10g give the brief explanation name to triggers and why its not support please Explain about it and what are the new futures on it

Comment by abdulwajidkhan — 1 February 2006 #
How to callback into forms from imported java class ? I must write PJC with rmi ? This feature will be implemented in Forms 11 ?

Comment by vyrib — 9 June 2006 #
I seem to have missed the question by abdulwajidkhan. Have a look at the Forms Upgrade Reference. It gives an overview of things no longer supported in Forms 9i/10g, including the ignore when-mouse-* triggers.

As for the callback to Forms from a PJC, have a look at the Oracle9i Forms in a Java World white paper. I have a separate blog entry about the new features of Forms version 11. That also states that in Forms 11 every PJC can trigger events in Forms. In Forms 10g your Java component has to extend VBean.

Comment by Wilfred — 9 June 2006 #

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